Turned to the dark side......got me thinking.....

OK so I have been seduced by the dark side and have started geocaching as we live 200 or so miles from Dartmoor and obviously can't get there often.
Now I appreciate the tacky trinkets, lack of skill involved, the fact that it is American etc etc etc lead people to dislike it.......but boy is it well organised!!!!
I know this is probably opening a can of worms but if there was a website listing letterbox clues (pay to join as you do for the book of clues) where people could log finding the box/if it's waterlogged/missing altogether/stamps been taken that would be really useful wouldn't it?? Updates would just be put into the website rather than having to be sent on bits of paper.
I realise it would need someone to set it all up and that might make it impossible and that there could be concerns about it becoming a money making venture.
So what do you think? Could letterboxing do with being dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st Century or would it lose it integrity and originality by moving it online?

In a word NO. We have enough trouble now with the LBT and thats with WOM clues as well as catalogue. If the clues were published on a website for all to see including those who are not interested, then we might as well pack our stamps and boxes away. As the 'tacky trinkets' cost nothing, so who cares if they go missing, our stamps cost a lot of money to produce, unless you have the skill to cut your own. Then there is the cost of the book. (I've seen some of the bits of paper in a Geo - again cost nothing) Then the cost of the water tight pot, and maintaining the box.

The 100 club wouldn't agree to it either, but if anyone wants to publish their own clues there is nothing to stop them. Set up a website - who is going to pay for that and as you say update it - invite people to publish their own clues and away you go. Not for me though. I've had 6 boxes stolen last year without publishing the clues

Hi Bog.

I suspect this could get heated, as I do know some boxers have very strong (and perhaps intolerant?) views about geocaching, although I don't know why. The two co-exist very happily, it's just some people view the upstart so negatively. Yes, there are crap geocaches with just some lined paper, but there are also well stocked, well placed and well housed with proper logbooks and ingenious and well made containers. There's lots of crap letterboxes out there too, leaky chinese takeaway tubs with some damp paper and a foam stamp of a star peeling off its backing... People of all abilities place caches and boxes alike and don't maintain them. They are different but similar in many many ways.

I do both, but am doing more and more caching than boxing, bar the odd charity walk when the missis can be bothered!

I also like the organised aspect of caching. Knowing that the cache has been found recently, or not. Whereas with letterboxing it's much more hit and miss. I've found that boxes in the book with 8 or 10 digit references are very very unreliable - around half I attempted in 2011 were missing. Without any structured way of feedback, the letterbox owner has no way short of going and checking that their box is ok, and it could stay in the book for years even when it's gorne.

I'm also a solo walker 90% of the time. That means I don't have (or particularly want!) the social side of letterboxing, so WOM clues aren't going to fall in my lap and I'm left with the unreliable public clues which don't encourage me to keep trying.

I don't get this hate towards geocaching. Letterboxing is more noticable to the public in my view due to the "kids boxes" littering several tors. Geocaching won't allow you to place two boxes closer than 0.1 mile so you don't get that density, plus they are more maintained (than the kids boxes, I'm NOT talking about the long established letterboxes with hand carved stamps which are a joy to find further away from the roads). GC also has strict rules on allowing caches on sites that don't want them - large tracts of the moor are owned by specialist nature organisations that don't want geocaching (Trendlebeer, for example) and without proof of permission you can't list things there. Those agencies may also not want letterboxes, but nobody needs to ask them. In addition to that, Geocaches on the moor also need to abide by the Dartmoor National Park Letterbox Code of Conduct.

The LBT also clears geocaches when sweeping an area, but because of the notification system, the cache owner knows quicker than the letterbox owner (unless by chance not found by a friend or themself).

As for your suggestion of listing them, it's already there! Create a letterbox. Fix the stamp to the box and mark clearly that it's not to be taken as a swap by cachers. List it as a letterbox in the usual way and then list as a letterbox hybrid geocache. There are quite a few out like this already and have been for years without incident.

Rather than viewing caches as a negative, why not consider the chance that they may inspire new letterboxers into the fold? For myself, both provide inspiration and structure to get me out walking and exploring parts of the moor and devon that I wouldn't otherwise see.

there are some websites with letterbox clues listed. Mainly american letterboxing dominated. So far I've found 1 such box on the moor (hello from the moon) , and I didn't find the clue till after I'd found the box... Mind you, I'd never have found it with that clue as the clue setter seems to have confused oke castle with Row Tor.

There were many "letterboxes" all over the world, however, letterboxing is an english thing. No offence to our American cousins, but I think they were jealous as they didn't invent the hobby... so they introduced Geocaching. I am not interested in geocaching, but I am not going to stop anyone from following their hobby - that is upto them.
I started boxing before the internet, so clues were only available by "direct contact" be it via the 100 club or with other WOM boxers. This allowed an element of control and self policing. The system worked.
There was a time when it was considered putting the catalogue on line. But, there would have been no way to police it. As you know many sites are hacked and information is corrupted and this wouldn't have been practical. We all know about the DLT, and this would make the theif impossible to track down. Remember a letterboxer had to find their first 100 boxes before being allowed to have a catalogue - perhaps this should be re-introduced?
WOM clues only used to be available via the owner and a perhaps a photocopier if you knew someone who had the clues - god help you if you got caught with an unauthorised set of clues like I did once! The internet makes it far too easy to exchange clues and makes it far too easy for the "wrong people" to get hold of the clues.
There is no right way or wrong way of setting out the letterbox clues. But having to get the book every year makes it much more of community, and why change a system that works? OK updates are available as an email, but not for everyone to use.... only those who have paid in the past
Now that gives me an idea... I might get back to you on this one if I can get it off the ground...

Nik quoted "only those who have paid in the past "

This still applies today and is very controlled, due to the 2 letterboxing programs that people have. You can pay 40p (I think) for an update to be emailed to you, not a lot of money if you pay for 6 months at the meet. If you run one of the letterboxing programs, either Mike Holidays or Malcoms then you still have to pay 40p for the update to be sent in the form of a program update that can be loaded straight into your program. These updates are monitored and if you go to the meet you will find Malcolm there with his laptop with all your details on whether you are upto date with your payments or not. Well worth the 40p to save sitting here typing all the info into the program

Nik - I don't think having the list online would lead to more boxes being nicked.

I'm not suggesting the system is changed, that's up to the club to vote and act if they see fit and I'd fully expect them not to change the status quo, which is absolutely fine - "Online details and a box on the moor" is already covered pretty well for us that enjoy that sort of thing. But the book is publically available and it's clear that the extra hassle of visiting Lee Moor or buying it by post has not prevented thefts.

I'm sure all of us have built our own mental profiles of the LBT (or group of LBTs), but we're all just guessing why they do it - but it IS clear they put a lot of effort into disrupting our hobbies and I'm sure they think they're justified in doing so. Also that on occasion they just target a specific area and clear it of everything, and in those cases, clues don't matter - just how well hidden it is (although knowing a listed box is there may encourage harder searching). Nor did clues published anywhere prevent Sowerby's six boxes being stolen. A minority of people dislike letterboxing to such a degree that they believe their opinion is worth more than the majority who either do, or don't care either way to the extent they enjoy sabotaging it. Sad, but it's not because of where the clues are published.

There is the other problem with not everyone is online, and to print a smaller run of catalogues would cost more per unit.

Thanks for all the interesting replies, I thought people may be a lot more hostile in their responses. The LBT/LBTs cause a lot of problems for letterboxers I was wondering (not in the case of when a farmer clears an area for example) but when Sowerby's six boxes went missing for example was each area cleared? Or does the LBT seem to be after particular stamps, ie those of high quality? Assuming your stamps are high quality Sowerby
Also can anyone tell me anything about the letterboxing programs and how they work?

Bog_baby, I think some of your comments are spot on. We all know and understand the history of LetterBoxing and the great fun and challenge it brings to folk. The issue I have with LetterBoxing is that it is not regulated in anyway. Often there are too many in the same location or very close and the challenge is lost of finding them. Boxes go missing or are water logged and not maintained for months and months, which is very disappointing when you've found the location, but no box, or a box that is in a real mess.
Geocaching is regulated and you have to obtain permission to place the box, does anyone obtain permission to place the LetterBox??
There is no such thing as the LBT by the way, this is a myth. Quite often the box owner has mis-recorded the location and on one occassion I saw some frisky foxes "kicking" around one of those Pill Box containers, so even the wildlife are getting fed up of all the items, both LetterBoxes and Geocaches, being poked in their homes.... With regards of publishing the clues online, is a only a matter of time when someone does, who's going to stop them?? I have all the clues for all recorded boxes on a database and could very easily drop these online and charge £nil for folk to get hold of them, clearly I wouldn't because what's the point. I'd prefer there to be say a couple of hundred boxes to leave the real challenge and adventure of letterboxing, just like the old days!!! anyway, that's my views, but everyone has their own thoughts and I look forward to any responses to this....

'There is no such thing as the LBT by the way, this is a myth. Quite often the box owner has mis-recorded the location and on one occassion I saw some frisky foxes "kicking" around one of those Pill Box containers...'



With the use now of GPS there must be an awful lot of box owners mis-recording the location of their boxes that have 'gone missing' each year!

Also the 'frisky fox' population on the moor must be on the increase to account for the number of boxes that have gone.

bog_baby wrote:when Sowerby's six boxes went missing for example was each area cleared? Or does the LBT seem to be after particular stamps, ie those of high quality? Assuming your stamps are high quality Sowerby
Also can anyone tell me anything about the letterboxing programs and how they work?

I can assure you each time one of my boxes has been 'stolen' several in the area have also gone. I checked on my box on Stone tor when walking out to Teignhead Farm, then the next week was informed it had gone along with quite a few on Manga Hill. Of course this is only a myth, and we all mis-recoreded them, even though quite a few boxers had also misread the clues and found them earlier, and the hole the box was in was empty!!
I can assure you my stamps are high quality - not hand carved as I'm not that talented. They are individual artist drawn stamps professionally made and Dartmoor related. Thats why its so upsetting to have them stolen.

To Magic Harry - I wouldn't go down the route of putting all those clues on the web if the boxes don't belong to you. That could be classed as theft As for charging £x for the clues - a few years back a man tried this. He put notices up in the pubs around Dartmoor telling people he would take them on a letterboxing walk and to join him at a starting point. When people got there he charged them all a fee, then proceeded to take them up to Great Mis tor, giving them a set of clues and showing them where the boxes were. Needless to say shortly after this most of the boxes were stolen!. He was politley warned off by the 'powers that be' and didn't try it again. Enough said. All the boxes whether catalogue or WOM belong to their owners. The clues to those boxes belong to the owners and therefore it is up to them and not others where they want their clues to go. If I found someone had published my clues, I would certainly take steps to make sure they were taken off the web and also just go out and move them all I put boxes out for people to find them and to take pleasure when walking the moor to get to their location. The last thing anyone wants is to walk quite a distance, then find the box has been stolen.

Can I ask if you have gone to the trouble of siting any boxes?????

SS - My comment was raising the point of how easily someone could pop the clues on the web and who could really stop this, I have no intention on doing so - as I've spend many years systemising this and would there's no way I'm sharing this with all and sundry. I've developed a programme where you simply pop in grid ref, all boxes and clues within that area are shown, plus all Geo Caches (+hints) and all other points of interest, including crosses, clappers, standing\boundary stones and of course nearest pub.

I'm all for the traditional letterboxes, but all the other tat needs regulating, just as is Geo Caches. Permissions should be granted for all boxes.

Anyway, enough said....

O.K. I understand now - intrigued by your program - are you running it on an excel spreadsheet???

Sowerby I can assure you I was kidding about the quality of your stamps and that it wasn't me that suggested you didn't know where you put your own boxes That was all MagicHarry's doing - don't be too harsh though as I think he may be my biggest fan - I'm just hoping he's young, dashing and has pots of money ........oh and that he'll lend me his database, just so I can makesure he hasn't missed anything out of course!!!!

Loving that frisky foxes imagery we definately need to keep you on this board Magic harry. I certainly believe in the LBT though as I've heard about charity walks disappearing very soon after they've been sold at the meet. Mind you I believe in Father Christmas so what can you do.....

Got it....... there is a LBT and SS stamps are the best !!
Anyway, all that said Dartmoor is still the best place in the world and I'm sure the LetterBoxes, Geocaches and little furry animals all live in perfect harmony!!

I'm going down to DM very shortly to visit my old haunt, The Forest Inn. You might even see my stamp in the book on top of the piano.....

As for the database, it's genuis (so I say myself). I've recorded every point of interest + letterboxes - over 100,000 references. Includes pretty much everything and anything on the moor. Even references to those pesky foxes I saw........and a pony's skull which scared the life out of me when I tripped and landed flat on my face, turned to one side and there it was a pony skull staring at me!!!!

...... and yes Bog_Baby, who ever you are, I am your no.1 fan!

MagicHarry wrote:Bog_baby, I think some of your comments are spot on. We all know and understand the history of LetterBoxing and the great fun and challenge it brings to folk. The issue I have with LetterBoxing is that it is not regulated in anyway. Often there are too many in the same location or very close and the challenge is lost of finding them. Boxes go missing or are water logged and not maintained for months and months, which is very disappointing when you've found the location, but no box, or a box that is in a real mess.
Geocaching is regulated and you have to obtain permission to place the box, does anyone obtain permission to place the LetterBox??
There is no such thing as the LBT by the way, this is a myth. Quite often the box owner has mis-recorded the location and on one occassion I saw some frisky foxes "kicking" around one of those Pill Box containers, so even the wildlife are getting fed up of all the items, both LetterBoxes and Geocaches, being poked in their homes.... With regards of publishing the clues online, is a only a matter of time when someone does, who's going to stop them?? I have all the clues for all recorded boxes on a database and could very easily drop these online and charge £nil for folk to get hold of them, clearly I wouldn't because what's the point. I'd prefer there to be say a couple of hundred boxes to leave the real challenge and adventure of letterboxing, just like the old days!!! anyway, that's my views, but everyone has their own thoughts and I look forward to any responses to this....

Sorry but there is an incorrect statement here Geocaching regulated on the Moor. I don't think so. The Geocaching folk follow the same guidelines/rules as does Letterboxers. If you want to disagree I suugest you have a look at the GAGB agreement found at this link. http://www.gagb.co.uk/gagb/glad/agreement_view.php?p=69
Yes there is an agreement with the Dartmoor NPA with regards to placing Letterboxes on the Moor. http://www.letterboxingondartmoor.co.uk ... nduct.html
Please check your facts>!!!

There is an understanding between the letterboxers and the DNPA there are times during the year we are requested not to go into certain areas during nesting and the like.
All serious letterboxers are aware of this, but not all. All this is done on a voluntary mutual respect process. As it is supposed to be the responsibility of the letterboxer to look after their boxes on a regular basis... sadly there are too many boxes that are in a bad state of repair. If you hadn't noticed this is something the 100 club takes seriously notification can be found in the updates!
As for badly damaged boxes which cannot be identified I will remove them myself, try to identify them and return them to their owner.

The row over geocaching v's letterboxing on the moor will trundle on until both hobbies are banned from the moor. Having rows like this on this forum is not good for the forum.

Both hobbies can be compared to Marmite, you'll either love it or hate it.

If you wish I can create a Geocaching page and you can comment all about Geocaching to your hearts content for those of you who enjoy that sort of thing

Nik - Whilst that may be a solution to the Geo v Letterboxing situation by creating a seperate page - this is a LETTERBOXING website and forum. I can't find anywhere where the Geo sites have pages for Letterboxers to moan away on Feel free to correct me if I am wrong

Well I didn't think there was a row??? Gemma defensively pointed out that geocaching goes under the same rules as letterboxing with regards to getting permisssions on the moor, but that hardly constitutes a row does it?
Neither was anyone disscussing geocaching in isolation ONLY in connection with letterboxing so why the suggestion that there should be a geocaching thread 'to moan' in?
Now that you've all been suitably reprimanded lets learn from the frisky foxes and all go back to playing nicely.

MagicHarry wrote:SS - My comment was raising the point of how easily someone could pop the clues on the web and who could really stop this, I have no intention on doing so - as I've spend many years systemising this and would there's no way I'm sharing this with all and sundry. I've developed a programme where you simply pop in grid ref, all boxes and clues within that area are shown, plus all Geo Caches (+hints) and all other points of interest, including crosses, clappers, standing\boundary stones and of course nearest pub.

I'm all for the traditional letterboxes, but all the other tat needs regulating, just as is Geo Caches. Permissions should be granted for all boxes.Anyway, enough said....

Permissions should be granted for all boxes.

they are given permission by the NPA.
Permission however does not = quality for either of the hobbies.

they are given permission by the NPA.
Permission however does not = quality for either of the hobbies.

TBH I'm surpised that geocaches are allowed on Dartmoor at all as it has such a history and tradition of letterboxing.

Discussion I'd say and clearly quite a touchy topic. Those Geos have a lot to answer for, although nothing like "marmite", which I love btw.
Gemma, a nice smile for you

I didn't notice a row! Nor do I think discussing things fairly evenly as we have here is bad for anyone - it shows both sides consider the problems seriously and in their own way try to resolve. I apologise if I've come across a tad militant, but I've seen some people been so disparaging about Geocaching without knowing anything about it and perhaps that puts me on the defensive a little early.

Letterboxing and Geocaching - it is just about rummaging around for bits of tupperware. Neither does any real damage to the moor, both get you out into a beautiful place to enjoy.

Let me tell you a story....

In my geocaching bag right now, I have a travel bug (A kind of travelling letterbox you leave in different geocaches. I found it in a letterbox/geocache hybrid above Princetown. When you find one, you log it and the owner gets a message from you and perhaps a picture of where you found it. We all get to see where it's been with a big map, all the pics, it's not uncommon for them to rack up tens of thousands of miles and travel the world)

Anyway, this one is a metal keyring with a big hiker's boot and a tag saying "Please keep on Dartmoor". When I found it last weekend and logged it, the details were:

Name: TonyMoore
This trackable is in memory of Tony Moore ( aka SpiderMan ) , My Dad , Who sadly passed away October 2011.
My Dad was a VERY keen walker, staring off as a letterboxer ( my fault >.< ) and got very much involved in that walking community.

Therefore this traveller is to roam Dartmoor only please.

Thanks

Proof that the two hobbies can exist together, and I'm honoured to be carrying it for a short while until I can find somewhere worthy to place it.

Magic Harry I'd say you're like marmite on this forum
What a lovely story Dartymoor. I'd say both hobbies have their sides that appeal to either children or adults. Geocaching has it's tacky trinkets just like letterboxing has it's kids boxes and geocaching has travel bugs and geocoins which appeal more to adults just as letterboxing has it's quality individually designed stamps. Both also no doubt have lots of nice people involved and some not so nice/thoughtless people.

That reminds me - I dropped a "LetterBox" Geocoin in the cache at Avon Reservoir, over a year ago. I wonder where that's ended up.

DartyMoor, great story.!

I only asked if you wanted another page for all you Geocachers out there... seems you dont want one so I wont create one... it's that simple

What is "geocashing?"

Nik - thanks, but already covered by a few other resources; http://www.dartmoorgeocaching.co.uk/ covers caching on dartmoor specifically, and there are very active Facebook groups for Devon and Cornwall cachers, as well as the universal forums. Think we're ok

Reg - the above is a good start, or for the official site, http://geocaching.com

Basically it's a lot like letterboxing, but all over the world and instead of using cryptic hints (although puzzles types are common, and many letterboxes are listed with full coordinates now), gps coordinates are given and used. Also, instead of stamps, you sign a logbook to prove you've been there, and some have little swaps and trading items inside, should you want to do that or have kids that want encouragement.

reg the bullmastiff wrote:What is "geocashing?"

Geocashing is the fine art of stealing ATM machines with a tractor.
Geocaching is the art of finding what you think is a letterbox only to find it filled with trinkets and no rubber stamp Hence my reason for not liking Geocaching much. I don't mind doing it else where... just not on the moor

Of all the geocaching forums, facebook pages etc, this is the most entertaining to read, keep up the good work!!

Brinnie
Geocaching Letterboxer.

See what you have started now bog baby

Don't blame me, blame the frisky foxes
Nik you are funny, Geocashing is SO going to be my next hobby.
WAIT JUST A MINUTE NOW, Nik did you just admit to, no I must have read it wrong, did you just write, no surely not OMG Nik did you just admit to geocaching (strictly off moor of course ).

bog_baby wrote: I know this is probably opening a can of worms but if there was a website listing letterbox clues (pay to join as you do for the book of clues) where people could log finding the box/if it's waterlogged/missing altogether/stamps been taken that would be really useful wouldn't it?? Updates would just be put into the website rather than having to be sent on bits of paper.

Could letterboxing do with being dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st Century or would it lose it integrity and originality by moving it online?

My two pennies worth ...

Listing boxes online with the purpose of box 'information' may not be a bad thing.
You could simply go online before you set out and find out if any of the boxes on your list have been reported as missing. You could then decide to either scrub it from your walk or validate it as missing. Perhaps the site could have a section where letterboxers tick boxes to match the condition of the box (found, damaged, missing, removed etc). This information would then build a picture ... 95 found it 8 couldn't, for example.
However, I do not believe the clues should be posted online. Just a list of letterbox names in alphabetical order. I do not believe it would cause any harm or help potential thieves without clues.

One more thing, I think you should prove that you are a 100 Club member before being sold a catalogue when you attend the Meet. They used to ask me for my name and membership number. But nowadays any Tom, Dick or (Magic) Harry can get one.

sorry Harry

The ONLY geocache boxes I have ever found were on the moors, yet I get the regular update for geocache boxes as yet I have not gone out looking for one.
I do like the idea of an availability list of boxes without the clues online, but sadly this too could be subject to abuse by saying it is there when it isn't and vice versa. It's a no win situation.

The Sly Fox wrote:

bog_baby wrote: I know this is probably opening a can of worms but if there was a website listing letterbox clues (pay to join as you do for the book of clues) where people could log finding the box/if it's waterlogged/missing altogether/stamps been taken that would be really useful wouldn't it?? Updates would just be put into the website rather than having to be sent on bits of paper.

Could letterboxing do with being dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st Century or would it lose it integrity and originality by moving it online?

My two pennies worth ...

Listing boxes online with the purpose of box 'information' may not be a bad thing.
You could simply go online before you set out and find out if any of the boxes on your list have been reported as missing. You could then decide to either scrub it from your walk or validate it as missing. Perhaps the site could have a section where letterboxers tick boxes to match the condition of the box (found, damaged, missing, removed etc). This information would then build a picture ... 95 found it 8 couldn't, for example.
However, I do not believe the clues should be posted online. Just a list of letterbox names in alphabetical order. I do not believe it would cause any harm or help potential thieves without clues.

One more thing, I think you should prove that you are a 100 Club member before being sold a catalogue when you attend the Meet. They used to ask me for my name and membership number. But nowadays any Tom, Dick or (Magic) Harry can get one.

sorry Harry

DO NOT AGREE with listing boxes that in my veiw is not Letterboxing. Yes it is a bit of a fag when one looks for a box that is no longer there but hay that is all part of the game.

It is very dispirating not finding box after box when they're listed in the book - and has in the past caused me to just stop looking and enjoy the walk instead. Not being able to easily notify the owner they're gone is imo the biggest drawback of Letterboxing, and the book is far less helpful than it otherwise would be when confidence in its contents are knocked.

If it is a catalogue box that is missing then you should just notify Malcolm Alderidge who co-ordinates all that sort of info for the updates and if the box has gone will delete it from the next issue of the catalogue. If its a WOM box you are looking for and its gone missing, then you should already have received the clues in the first instance from the owner and therefore can inform him/her when you return from your trip. Simples......

Sowerby Streaker wrote:If it is a catalogue box that is missing then you should just notify Malcolm Alderidge who co-ordinates all that sort of info for the updates and if the box has gone will delete it from the next issue of the catalogue. If its a WOM box you are looking for and its gone missing, then you should already have received the clues in the first instance from the owner and therefore can inform him/her when you return from your trip. Simples......

Yep wot they said.

Even if everyone does that, it's still six months between books - and no easy and cost-effective way to update an electronic copy (I'll not be spending days typing in the details again!).

There's probably no way around it, and as mentioned is a part of letterboxing - it's just, at least for me, not a very enjoyable part.

LetterBoxes should be listed Online (no clues though - don't want to upset anyone Gemma! ). Then at least if the boxes are damaged or missing (or have been eaten by those hungry little foxes), folk can then post a message, so that other people don't waste their time looking. The said letterbox can then be flagged as "unavailable" until the owner sorts it out.
I wouldn't worry about whether you have to proove if you belong to the 100 club, as I've seen the catalogue on Ebay many a time!!..
Anyway, locations and clues are safely on my SATMAP and I'll be finding some of those non-existence boxes sometime soon.

MagicHarry wrote:LetterBoxes should be listed Online (no clues though - don't want to upset anyone Gemma! ). Then at least if the boxes are damaged or missing (or have been eaten by those hungry little foxes), folk can then post a message, so that other people don't waste their time looking. The said letterbox can then be flagged as "unavailable" until the owner sorts it out.
I wouldn't worry about whether you have to proove if you belong to the 100 club, as I've seen the catalogue on Ebay many a time!!..
Anyway, locations and clues are safely on my SATMAP and I'll be finding some of those non-existence boxes sometime soon.

Oh but there is a place for folk to list boxes that are missing in bad condition etc.

viewforum.php?f=6

So I can look forward to EVERYONE posting their two penny worth then.

PS Does every one post DNF "the dark side" if there is a DNF or needs Maintenance note???

Has anyone ever visited any letterboxes listed on one of these US website, I believe one is call atlas, not sure about the other one.

I think one of the problems with emailing someone to say a letterbox is missing so it can be deleted is that maybe the reason you didn't find it was because you just didn't look under the right rock/you're useless with a compass (two reasons why I'd never email someone to say a letterbox is missing!! )

However with geocaching a single DNF doesn't have to mean a box is missing but 3 in a row suggests it is (and I know one box I found a couple weeks ago had had to be replaced after 3 DNF's). I think people will generally post a DNF at the same time as logging caches they have found although maybe the exactness of GCing gives people confidence that if they didn't find it it probably is missing - so maybe wouldn't work as well for letterboxing?

Would everyone on here would be confident that if they didn't find a box it must be missing?
Anyway I'm going to pop down to friskyfoxesrus and get myself a fox to take letterboxing with me, they must be better at it than me . It'll be my secret weapon
Haven't been on any US sites though, I always thought there probably wouldn't be many UK letterboxes on them?

Brinnie wrote:Has anyone ever visited any letterboxes listed on one of these US website, I believe one is call atlas, not sure about the other one.

Yep!!! Not many Boxes listed for the UK, and not very many finders.Guess UK Boxers are not bothered.

Some of us clearly are bothered!

But perhaps the majority aren't, or like myself, cannot see a way to reconcile the problems and the people.

My view is that thefts have increased dramatically over the past few years and this is more of a problem than it has been, and frustrating when technology has tools to add another layer to letterboxing (computer organisation, email and gps location) which could make reporting and updating quicker, easier and more accurate - but, well, if you *do* change letterboxing to that you both alienate those who would very much like how they do it now, have lots of WOM contacts and don't see a need to change; and, well, you do bring it very close to what geocaching is and there is no point to that since geocaching is already here.

I'm comfy in bed waiting for the Rugby to start so I'll expand...

Letterboxes come in three flavours that I know of;

1. Listed, hand-cut interesting stamps in the book.
2. WOM boxes put out for a small circle of friends.
3. Kids boxes with shop-bought stamps, often in poor containers and poorly sited.

Let's consider the future of letterboxing for a moment. How does a new boxer get infected with this enjoyment?

The kids boxes might have a casual interest but I don't think will engage people in the same way. They're often seen as litter and in some areas it's easy to see why. Parents may want to do something fun for their child and put another out, and it may even get checked, although from my observations they're most likely to find a soggy logbook due to a chinese takeaway container being used or something similarly unrobust!

If they find a hand-cut stamp, they may well appreciate the work and effort gone into it and perhaps the story behind it or the location and search for more (how I started). But with these listed in the book going missing, if they do look through the book they may get dispirited and frustrated and give up becuase they're not there. (Stolen, cleared, not updated). Also because of the work involved in "proper" stamps, it must be very dispiriting to know it's been nicked.

I don't know much about playing the WOM game, despite having been to several meets and been letterboxing for over twenty years (albiet most of those lost to other things!) because I'm a solitary walker and not that sociable. WOM is a hard thing to get into, although I'm sure is more engaging once you're "in". When I have asked someone, I was told that since they didn't know me well enough they wouldn't give me anything. Fair enough, I understand that, but it means this is an aspect I'm unlikely to be involved with.

Oh, just remembered a fourth - the charity series. These seem as popular and as well maintained as ever and I've done several with the wife this winter and enjoyed them very much. (Although curious why nobody's selling these on the internet via an online shop? Pay your money, get sent the sheet immediately, money gets sent to the charity collector or direct.)

So of the future, will letterboxing become mostly kids boxes littering a few roadside tors? Will the thefts have a real impact on the enjoyment - if listing them in a book cause them to get stolen more often, does that threaten the future of the book? I'm unlikely to buy the spring book since so many of those I've tracked down over the winter have not been there (about 50%), am I alone?

All hobbies need new blood coming in to survive. Do we have it?

I can answer a couple of your points - yes there is new blood coming into letterboxing all the time. Children that started with their parents are now grown up and off letterboxing on their own. As to getting into the WOM circuit that is a very easy thing to do. Do you have any boxes out on the moors of your own?? A new member on this forum emailed me the same question and I have helped him get into the WOM circuit. He went to the trouble of making his own hand cut stamps - absolutley beautiful work of 'beasts on Dartmoor'. he put 8 out, then asked me to get in touch with my own list of WOM who would like to swap clues. I went and checked his walk, quality of stamps, clues etc. and once satisfied he was a genuine son who was more than interested in just putting 'shop' bought stamps put, I gave his email address to several of my friends who I knew had boxes out and who would swap once I had verified the stamps. I think to date he has been inundated with clues and quite a lot of the 'old school' boxers have been out, done the walk and have added him to their own lists.
So please don't moan about the WOM people - get out and do something about it. Put some boxes out with decent stamps in, good clues, then get in touch with someone you know who has boxes out (with me if you like) and get your details passed around. The clues will come flying in once your stamps and clues have been verified. You won't get any clues by just lying in bed typing away Just to say though that I did not give any email addresses away, I do it the other way around. This boxer allowed me to give his email address to anyone interested in getting in touch with him. That way it was up to them to make contact or not.

Well done SS. good posting, but I am afraid people who may have started letterboxing in the past few years, may have gone to the darker side!!
Much easier that way, it is just sitting there on a website.
M

Another way of getting onto the WOM circuit is when you find a WOM box is to get back to the owner of the box letting them know the condition of the box - especially if it has a email contact or phone number and to let them know. You them discreetly ask them if they have any clues they might let you have.
If you are bold enough to ask them if they have contact details for other boxers that they are willing to let you have. This is a slow method and uphill work for the majority of it. If you are a newbie then that climb is going to be near vertical!
Be prepared to be rejected, ignored or even told to eff off.
OK I had the advantage of being reasonably known in the letterboxing fraternity, and knowing a few of the "right people". Doing this netted me the best part of 8,000 clues, this took me a year to accumulate.
Don't ask, don't get is the way I look at life

Brinnie wrote:Well done SS. good posting, but I am afraid people who may have started letterboxing in the past few years, may have gone to the darker side!!
Much easier that way, it is just sitting there on a website.
M

Well, yes - and no. You still have to go out into the same area and look for the same sort of thing (usually). The benefits are that you are more certain it's there since you can see when it was last found. Doesn't guarantee it is there, of course, but they're more actively monitored. And don't think it's all easy - some have fiendish puzzles that need to be solved before you can work out the final coordinates, or need several boxes visited to get to the final. I'm trying not to promote GC too much as this is not the place, but there is a lot of variety and some assumptions are probably wrong.

Also - don't assume GC is the enemy, don't forget that some letterboxers may have come into this through geocaching - I wouldn't think it's all traffic out.

SS and Nik - yep, good points, and good to see them written down somewhere. It's not common knowledge WOM even exists, let alone how to get into it! I do have one letterbox out there, but I heard from it's first finder (some 5 months after it was placed, and theirs was the first log, and it's only because they geocache as well as letterbox like I do that they recognised my name and got in touch!) that it's letting some damp in and I'll probably be removing it next time I'm passing.

I have to say I am getting less interested in both activities.

The glut of geocaches these days are either of the type (no offence to the apparent large number of people who joined geocaching in the last year or two that seem to enjoy this sort of stuff);

- "look how clever I can hide a tiny box - why don't you finders lick my arse on a public forum to show everyone how clever you are that you were able to find it - extra brownie points if you also give it a 'favourite'"

- "the minimum distance between caches allowed is .1 of a mile - I'll place 253 (or any arbitrary number - as long as it is high enough) in a so-called 'power-loop' all .1000001 mile apart from eachother"

- "I have an iphone with a crappy GPS reception and I'll chuck a few small film pots around the neighbourhood in the most uninspiring locations you can imagine"

It is rare to find one these days that takes you out to a lovely spot that you have not visited before and would otherwise probably not have discovered. (and that doesn't necessarily need to be in the middle of nowhere)


As for letterboxing - I am not really interested in the social aspect - so WOM clues are hard to get - although I always report back if there is an email addy in a box I find and some people (but that is the minority) respond by giving me a few more clues. I stopped buying the cluebook as these boxes really don't exist when you look for them and as a result can't do charity walks either as they aren't published anywhere else.

So I find myself more and more just walking the dogs on my own out on the moor and having a bit of a scavenge without any gadgets and maps. It does mean the number of letterboxes found on a walk is only small - but they are almost always nice finds. A lot of old ones that are rarely been found and quite a high number of them are hand-made.

So T.C. after reading your response above - can I ask why you remain a member of this Letterboxing site????? If you are not interested in letterboxing, seems rather strange that you would want to be on here

I am not sure to be honest ... lets see how this remove member thing works ..

edit: seems I can't remove myself ..

Sowerby Streaker wrote:So T.C. after reading your response above - can I ask why you remain a member of this Letterboxing site????? If you are not interested in letterboxing, seems rather strange that you would want to be on here

I thought letterboxing got off rather lightly after the bashing geocaching got you were rather harsh though SS and eye rolling at people is REALLY rude in my opinion - just because someone is an occassional boxer who does it as they go out for a walk shouldn't mean they can't air their views on this forum. Perhaps you need a visit to hardcore boxers anonymous
TC's I really like you for 2 reasons - 1 you have chocolate in your name and it's delicious and 2 I have a choc lab/collie cross, see you are appreciated really

Staying quiet on this one, since TC seems to have somehow taken offense at my caches (although neither small nor "clever!") and what I write...

I'm a bit sad they feel this way about all of GC and Letterboxing though, but as with any hobby, if it doesn't make you happy, what's the point?

I would like to put my 2p in.

Good luck to Geocachers - I have given it a bash here in B/stoke, there is a very cleverly hidden one in a well known supermarket carpark!
HOWEVER
I did find a very badly hidden cache on the path up to the moor from the fox and hounds, It was so plain that any non boxing walker would trip over.

I have also found several boxes on several tors that are so close to each other I can be sat on a rock getting the stamp - look up and 3 rocks away I can see another box! So it is not just Geocahe's that are too close together.

Not a fan of uploading all my 'finds' to a website but do love the way that you can tell if a box is damaged, missing or put back with an incorrect bearing a lot faster than with letterboxes.

So I am in the live and let live camp - but I will swear loudly when I am competing with DS to get the 1st box of the day or most boxes that day in total and that fab pot I pull out is not a letterbox

Dartymoor wrote:Staying quiet on this one, since TC seems to have somehow taken offense at my caches (although neither small nor "clever!") and what I write...

No offence intented DM .. I had read something you wrote in the wrong context that was all .. I can only add to the last poster who states live & let live .. I'll still do both activities - it is just a shame the enjoyment isn't always at the same level as a few years ago ..

bog_baby wrote:

Sowerby Streaker wrote:So T.C. after reading your response above - can I ask why you remain a member of this Letterboxing site????? If you are not interested in letterboxing, seems rather strange that you would want to be on here

I thought letterboxing got off rather lightly after the bashing geocaching got you were rather harsh though SS and eye rolling at people is REALLY rude in my opinion - just because someone is an occassional boxer who does it as they go out for a walk shouldn't mean they can't air their views on this forum. Perhaps you need a visit to hardcore boxers anonymous
TC's I really like you for 2 reasons - 1 you have chocolate in your name and it's delicious and 2 I have a choc lab/collie cross, see you are appreciated really

I thought letterboxing got off rather lightly after the bashing geocaching got Humm guess you don't read the GC forums then.

SS I would suggest is just airing their view, as I am. Rolling eyes in my view is not rude

There is good & bad in both hobbies but in my view far more bad in GCing!

Thanks Gemma - the rolling eyes smiley was not intended to be used as an insult to anyone. The smileys on this forum are there to lighten and brighten, up our posts.

To Bog Baby -you quoted - Perhaps you need a visit to hardcore boxers anonymous
For your info, I am a hard core boxer and have been since the early 1980's. I have now nearly 29,000 stamps in my collection, so think that qualifies me as a dedicated boxer, so no need for me to visit anywhere other than on the moors which I love. Wonder how many boxes you have collected so far

TC I find your comments quite refreshing, I hope you don't really wish to leave the forum. It would definitely be a poorer place without you.
The Letterboxing community really is a forum for people who love Dartmoor, not just boxing, though boxing is the primary "sport" on the moor.

Gemma wrote:

Brinnie wrote:Has anyone ever visited any letterboxes listed on one of these US website, I believe one is call atlas, not sure about the other one.

Yep!!! Not many Boxes listed for the UK, and not very many finders.Guess UK Boxers are not bothered.

We tried "Atlas Quest" a couple of years ago. The clues are all from American 'Boxers' and have no idea when issuing a Dartmoor clue as to either its accuracy or its relevance in the Dartmoor landscape. They seem to think too big all the time !
eg. from Okehampton Castle walk along a path, box under rock. (apparently the box is on Row Tor !) This can explain the NOT BOTHERED problem.

We did issue one of our WoM clues on this site. A standard Dartmoor clue including GPS.
It was never ever visited by any American or Atlas Quest member.

Sowerby Streaker wrote:Thanks Gemma - the rolling eyes smiley was not intended to be used as an insult to anyone. The smileys on this forum are there to lighten and brighten, up our posts.

To Bog Baby -you quoted - Perhaps you need a visit to hardcore boxers anonymous
For your info, I am a hard core boxer and have been since the early 1980's. I have now nearly 29,000 stamps in my collection, so think that qualifies me as a dedicated boxer, so no need for me to visit anywhere other than on the moors which I love. Wonder how many boxes you have collected so far

Sounds like its thumbs in braces time ! Ours is also 29.000

Nik - KOTM wrote:though boxing is the primary "sport" on the moor.

Ah, now there's a challenging statement!

You might argue that walking is not a sport, but I would say the same of boxing since you don't have to do it in a competitive way, so I would call Walking the biggest sport and pasttime on Dartmoor based on man-hours?

Freemans of the Moor wrote:

Sowerby Streaker wrote:Thanks Gemma - the rolling eyes smiley was not intended to be used as an insult to anyone. The smileys on this forum are there to lighten and brighten, up our posts.

To Bog Baby -you quoted - Perhaps you need a visit to hardcore boxers anonymous
For your info, I am a hard core boxer and have been since the early 1980's. I have now nearly 29,000 stamps in my collection, so think that qualifies me as a dedicated boxer, so no need for me to visit anywhere other than on the moors which I love. Wonder how many boxes you have collected so far

Sounds like its thumbs in braces time ! Ours is also 29.000

Only one thumb for us Freeman's as we have only Circa 19K , guess we are only beginners!!

Sowerby Streaker wrote:Thanks Gemma - the rolling eyes smiley was not intended to be used as an insult to anyone. The smileys on this forum are there to lighten and brighten, up our posts.

To Bog Baby -you quoted - Perhaps you need a visit to hardcore boxers anonymous
For your info, I am a hard core boxer and have been since the early 1980's. I have now nearly 29,000 stamps in my collection, so think that qualifies me as a dedicated boxer, so no need for me to visit anywhere other than on the moors which I love. Wonder how many boxes you have collected so far

Ah sorry SS I clearly misunderstood you as it appeared you told TC's you didn't think they should bother being on this board, I'm not quite sure how a smiley rolling it's eyes lightens and brightens this comment but I'll take your word for it.

You clearly misunderstood the point you have quoted above. Saying you needed to visit HC boxers anonymous was not questioning how many boxes you had visited or how dedicated to the sport you are. The complete opposite in fact, I meant that as a hard core boxer you appear to look down on anyone who isn't as dedicated as you. You have in fact gone on to prove my point by 'wondering' how many boxes I have collected when you know full well no doubt that we have yet to reach a hundred - I have mentioned it in a lot of posts.

Gemma wrote:

bog_baby wrote:

Sowerby Streaker wrote:So T.C. after reading your response above - can I ask why you remain a member of this Letterboxing site????? If you are not interested in letterboxing, seems rather strange that you would want to be on here

I thought letterboxing got off rather lightly after the bashing geocaching got you were rather harsh though SS and eye rolling at people is REALLY rude in my opinion - just because someone is an occassional boxer who does it as they go out for a walk shouldn't mean they can't air their views on this forum. Perhaps you need a visit to hardcore boxers anonymous
TC's I really like you for 2 reasons - 1 you have chocolate in your name and it's delicious and 2 I have a choc lab/collie cross, see you are appreciated really

I thought letterboxing got off rather lightly after the bashing geocaching got Humm guess you don't read the GC forums then.

SS I would suggest is just airing their view, as I am. Rolling eyes in my view is not rude

There is good & bad in both hobbies but in my view far more bad in GCing!

No I don't read the GC forums, I was talking about T.C's post.

It comes as absolutely no suprise what so ever to me that you don't find the eye rolling smilie rude. I'll say no more.

Nik - KOTM wrote:TC I find your comments quite refreshing, I hope you don't really wish to leave the forum. It would definitely be a poorer place without you.
The Letterboxing community really is a forum for people who love Dartmoor, not just boxing, though boxing is the primary "sport" on the moor.

The voice of reason.

Dartymoor wrote:

Nik - KOTM wrote:though boxing is the primary "sport" on the moor.

Ah, now there's a challenging statement!

You might argue that walking is not a sport, but I would say the same of boxing since you don't have to do it in a competitive way, so I would call Walking the biggest sport and pasttime on Dartmoor based on man-hours?

Some people seem to be a little too competetive I have referred to letterboxing as a sport previously but your post set me thinking about it. I don't think moor walking can be classed as a sport as it's not competitive, can letterboxing be classed as a sport? Is it only a sport for those that do it competitively but a hobby to the others? No one could know how many people are letterboxing competitively though so I guess it's quite possible there could be more people geocaching competitively thus making that the primary sport on the moor

Well, all the above certainly makes interesting reading!
Can not help but wondering why we entertain GC`s on this a LETTERBOXING site.
Seems to me some have nothing else better to do in their lives other than provoke confrontation - but that is not unusual these days when you look at You Tube, Twitter , and Facebook!
I will bet that there are NO real letterboxers on a GC site doing the same! Why do I say this - because we real letterboxers are dedicated to our 'pastime' and not interested in American orientated .

Found a GC recently near William Well - had a book, pen, and a joke shop plastic finger in it.
Saying no more!

The Wandering Artist wrote:Seems to me some have nothing else better to do in their lives other than provoke confrontation - but that is not unusual these days when you look at You Tube, Twitter , and Facebook!

Got it in one WA - what a shame this thread has sunk so low as to ignore the fact we are all on here to help one another and also to share/ discuss our hobby of letterboxing on Dartmoor. (oops must stop using smilies in case I insult someone - oh what the heck )

The Wandering Artist wrote: I will bet that there are NO real letterboxers on a GC site doing the same! Why do I say this - because we real letterboxers are dedicated to our 'pastime' and not interested in American orientated

A quick search of the geoaching forums tells a different tale, with dartmoor and letterboxing mentioned several times. Whether these people (like myself with somewhere over a thousand and around 28 years in the hobby) are "real letterboxers", I don't know. I do know I have spoken passionately about letterboxing to many people over the years, including geocachers.

As to why this discussion is entertained? Why not, when hundreds of other dartmoor-related-but-not-strictly-letterboxing threads have been started? It's pretty obvious from this discussion that it is a subject of interest to many.

Seems confrontation can come from several sources.

Walking does lots of things for the body. Letterboxing also involves walking but the loose term "sport" means you gain something physical from doing it.
Tell me that "I have got x number of stamps today!" isn't someone throwing a challenge for someone else to try and beat

Tamerton Chocolates wrote:So I find myself more and more just walking the dogs on my own out on the moor and having a bit of a scavenge without any gadgets and maps. It does mean the number of letterboxes found on a walk is only small - but they are almost always nice finds.

Hear, hear! Good for you. I walk on my own, no problem with that, and sometimes (usually??) find few boxes. I tend to plan the walk just as a walk, then simply see what boxes may be on the way. I can have a nice walk on the moors and find no boxes.

Sadly my dog died last November after a long illness, so no letterboxing for the past couple of years. Currently redecorating, then get another dog and then back walking/boxing together on the moors again

For 'gadgets and maps' I do use map and compass, take GPS but rarely use it, and write onto paper any clues I may want to look for on the walk (so no need to take the whole catalogue).

Dartymoor wrote:The LBT also clears geocaches when sweeping an area, but because of the notification system, the cache owner knows quicker than the letterbox owner (unless by chance not found by a friend or themself).

Okay, but does the LBT remove more geocaches because they are listed online? (Alternatively, would fewer geocaches be removed if they were not online?)

If not, then there is no real reason to suspect that more letterboxes would be removed by being online.




John.

OK - lets finally hit this one on the head. Letterboxes are privately owned, they are sited out on the moor with "permission" from DNPA there are restrictions that govern the siting of boxes, which don't seem to apply to some geocaching boxes, but these rules are all known to the letterboxer, but not necessarily to the geocacher.
The lists of GC boxes can be published online as there is nothing of value in the box. Quite often in a letterbox there is a semi-valuable stamp in the box, this is as you know, the visitors reference, and sometimes irreplacable. For the dartmoor letterbox thing to go online would require the permission of every owner of every box sited on the moor.

Nik - KOTM wrote:OK - lets finally hit this one on the head. Letterboxes are privately owned, they are sited out on the moor with "permission" from DNPA there are restrictions that govern the siting of boxes, which don't seem to apply to some geocaching boxes, but these rules are all known to the letterboxer, but not necessarily to the geocacher.

The placing guidelines for letterboxes are actually far less "restricted" then those for geocaches. Until recently the DNPA allowed geocaches to be placed using the letterboxing code of conduct that they have on their website. They have recently amended this and geocaches now need specific permission from the landowner (f.i. the National Trust) if they are place within an SSSI (which covers a large part of the moor). And of course they have to meet groundspeak's general placing guidelines as well.

I presume the amendment comes from the fact that it is quite easy to force geocaches to adhere to certain rules wheras letterboxes are in essence just boxes hidden by individuals over which the NP has no control (other then a little self regulation amongst letterboxers)

As for your last statement - I am pretty sure that the most cache owners on Dartmoor are just as aware of the rules as letterbox owners.

Most yes - all no... and the same can be said for some peeps siting boxes

Nik - not that I think this would necessarily be a good thing, but I'm not sure agreement from every box owner would be needed. It is not a huge leap to assume that those who submit their details to the *publically available* book want their boxes published and spread. Putting online is just another form and could be seen as natural progression by some.

However.

Who owns the copyright of the text? Sylvia Moore for compiling the book, or the individual ownes for writing the clues? (I do admit I haven't checked the small print to see as am currently confined to bed!) Without that holder's agreement the text cannot be copied or republished.

Dartymoor wrote:Nik - not that I think this would necessarily be a good thing, but I'm not sure agreement from every box owner would be needed. It is not a huge leap to assume that those who submit their details to the *publically available* book want their boxes published and spread. Putting online is just another form and could be seen as natural progression by some.

However.

Who owns the copyright of the text? Sylvia Moore for compiling the book, or the individual ownes for writing the clues? (I do admit I haven't checked the small print to see as am currently confined to bed!) Without that holder's agreement the text cannot be copied or republished.

Agreement not needed nor is it possible to Manage. Even if it was possible to get an agreement how would it me policed.

As for copyright, I suggest the copyright is with the "clue writer" BUT that said once it goes into the Clue Book it is in the public domain & there by is the problem!! NO WAY could that be managed.

I don't subscribe that the way is ahead it to put the clues online. Hobby has been around a very long time & is still very popular.

it seems to me that the only thing to be gained by an internet database would be the ease of updating missing boxes for all other purposes the method currently in use seems to work quite well

i wonder if it may be possible for a list of the box numbers to be posted without their clues at the top of the missing boxes section in such a way that you could log in and tag it was missing then when others are in the area they could verify it

im shure if it is possible it would be quite easy to go through your book and highlight the missing boxes

Somewhere I do have a list of boxes from 1 - 30000 it might be higher I can't remember
But an online database without clues would be good

Might be worth having a thread on here like that then. Just the box number and name of box. Then people can post whether they are missing or not.
Even easier, just pay 40p for the monthly update from Malcolm. He updates the boxes on there. I know its a year between catalogues now, but with that small expense, I keep up to date with all the boxes - missing, unmaintained etc.

There could quite easily be an online catalog with clues and instead of buying a printed one, letterboxers could purchase (and renew) a login for a year (just to pay for the upkeep of the site - perhaps people could be vetted before obtaining a login)

It would save whoever keeps the catalog up-to-date nowadays a lot of time and letterboxers could easily give feedback for boxes, print clues etc. To the LBT it would be just as easy/difficult to obtain clues as it is now - but by moving part of the hobby into the 21st century perhaps it would attract some fresh blood.

The site could also be used to distribute WOM clues where only certain logins have access to them (determined by the owner of the box).

edit: And you could extend this idea no end. There could be a page where non-members can report boxes, you could allow charity walks to be sold directly through the online catalog (exposing them to a lot more potential buyers then having them only at the meet) .. etc

But as Gemma mentioned before - the hobby has been around for a while and I don't think the few dozen oldschool letterboxers that currently keep it going are likely to change their ways.

i think as an addition to the current way letterboxing is run with the cluebook being easily obtainable by all that if you where able to update your book and mark off missing boxes easily that it would stop newcomers to letterboxing getting annoyed at missing boxes and trying anther hobby instead.

once set up it would make the job for the people who put their time into making the cluebook easier and give letterboxers new and old a better idea of whats missing.

as some people have mentioned there are letterbox/geocache hybrid boxes popping up anyway anybody wanting to do that allready has the hobby started off for them and all they have to do is set their new or existing box up on a geocacheing site and add the clues to that site.

or as has allready been mentioned there is nothing stopping people from putting out boxes and posting their clues on this site maybe a new section could be added for this purpose. as a new boxer i may use it when i get around to putting some out but i think people who have been doing it a long time who have lost lots allready would be a lot more wary of it.

OK before this gets completely out of control I think I had better pour some oil on these waters.
An interesting debate it has been, but this forum has no sway over the 100 club committee, it is a forum for letterboxers to compare notes yarns or dits.
Personally I would welcome an online version of the clue book, and an online database with images of all the 100 club stamps that have ever appeared on the moor which have been deleted.
It would certainly make my pile of unknown stamps smaller.

As Sylvia Moors owns the copyright to the clue boox along with the box owners, this is never going to happen unless she and the others give their permission. Who is going to go throught the catalogue and contact all the owners of each box for their permission. If the catalogue goes on line without those permissions, then someone better have a big bank balance to defend the court case.

The 100 club runs very well as it is, is hugely recognised even in the US. Only last year Roger and Steph took around a group from the US who were celebrating some anniversary and in doing so, they commented how well the 100club was run.

Like you Nik, think this thread is in danger of getting out of control.

Personally I like it just the way it is, I can see the plus sides of an online Database but at the same time I think letterboxing for me would lose its charm as I would suspect it would end up as more geocaching than letterboxing.

Putting my "IT" hat on for a second I reckon it would be quite a big job to create a good online letterboxing database website with all the functionally people would expect. It would take a serious amount of development time to do, so unless people with the relevant skills offered their time for free there would be a big bill for development which of course would then have to be passed onto the subscribers.

As Maureen has pointed out you would then probably still need to get the permission of the box owners to publish them online. Which I suspect a lot of people would not give so in the end you will end up with a database with fewer clues in than the current Cat and a lot more WOM boxes.

Colin