Discuss - How could we improve letterboxing in the UK?
Nik - KOTM
2015-07-11 11:59:20
As has been mentioned in another thread, the future of letterboxing is looking a bit weary and failing.
Please bear in mind that on this forum it is only a discussion, and we have no power or sway over the 100 Letterbox Club.
For my own opinions, I am in favour of getting the Dartmoor letterbox catalogue digitised and available on line. However, with the hacking abilities of those out there, this isn't exactly fool proof. I am still happy to pay for the service. The updates should also be done daily or as required (the cost of this can be incorporated in the online catalogue price).
However, I am aware there are those out there who prefer the book and paper as they are not likely to even read this let alone an online catalogue.
I am also in favour of the 100 Club retaining control.
I am also in favour of bringing back the 6 figure reference as a maximum level of numbers... the fun always came in hunting for the box, instead of today using technology to walk up to within a few feet of the box.
That's my views... how about you?
Dartymoor
2015-07-12 10:45:40
Thanks for raising this. I hope it generates discussion and maybe even action.
A(mostly ex) letterboxer's thoughts, who has lived on, walked, cycled, ridden and worked on the moor since the 80s, with some experience of geocaching too. (Don't roll your eyes Nik and others who are vocally opposed to this - learn from the human nature that has lead to it overtaking letterboxing even amongst established boxers, but also keep in mind that letterboxing is different and needs to remain different)
Some ideas;
1. I agree with you about 6-figure refs. Never give exact coords. Then you're just another wannabe geocaching lookalike, and letterboxing's history demands more than that. (Also, groundspeak are too big to compete with head-on for geocaching and similar, see Garmin's failed attempts with all their resources) (If this needs to be digitised to lat/long then give an exact location as a starting point, with "within 100 meters" or whatever. - Find the USP that letterboxing needs besides its history to be different)
2. Don't obsess about the LBT. It's easy to assume this is one determined individual scouring the countryside and targetting boxes. Most likely it is an increased number of people on the moor finding things by accident and taking them away either knowingly or in ignorance. Note 3 below gives a way that things can be reported easier.
3. Set up a central way to report missing boxes online, and optionally mark them as found. (A huge benefit of geocaching is knowing when something's been taken or is leaking so the owner can replace it. Searchers gain confidence knowing it's been found recently and search harder, and some take pleasure in breaking a did-not-find run by searching harder). You might argue that you enjoy meeting up with the owner over a pint and talking about their boxes - which is great - but not everyone is sociable.
4. The book needs to be freely available online as a searchable database (not necessarily in a map format). That will kill sales, no doubt, but a central location with a unique ID for each box is essential for reporting, sharing etc. Some online submission and verification system needs to exist - such as a peer-review system that does not rely on a single person. Data needs to be easily exportable for use in GPSrs (ie, GPX and/or LOC format) and possibly CSV for those who like to compile spreadsheets.
5. Stop doing WOM boxes. This is what's killing letterboxing more than anything in my view. Unless you know somebody already heavily involved, AND you are sociable, AND you are prepared to put in the work to gain their trust and become a part of the circle, getting involved in letterboxing is incredibly hard now. Far more than it was in the vaunted 90s. This makes letterboxing look elitist and cliquey.
6. Take charity walks online, with online payment and fulfillment. It is very inconvenient for me to drive over an hour to the other side of the moor on a specific (usually rainy!) day to see the lists and buy some with actual cash. Going online also allows the boxer to see how much each is raising for each cause. (I know this site offers to send sheets out by post, but I haven't written a cheque for over two years and the banks only just cancelled the plan to stop doing cheques entirely by 2018)
7. Don't ever try to monetise letterboxing or have paid access to a central database. There will be costs involved (modest server/site rental costs such as this forum) but the internet users are tired of being sold to. Somebody needs to give renting space and admin time freely (unless covered by 100 club/whoevers expenses, or on-site advertising)
This is partly a gripe list - but you can't change what's wrong and become better without accepting some things *are* wrong. I encourage everyone to argue against what I say.
I don't know enough about the 100 club or its personalities to say whether they are the right people or not to take this forwards or keep control (whilst I've qualified several times over, I have never applied for a badge or been involved socially other than attending a few annual meets for charity lists and the book). If they "own" the data in the book legally, then it has to be them. If the data is owned by the submitters and they haven't given specific or implied consent for it being published online, then it's likely none of this can with without starting over. (Which seems daunting)
Realistically, I think a lot of those actively involved like things as they are and won't change, and letterboxing will continue as it is. I also know some boxers are very happy just sharing a few boxes with their friends and that's great.
The real question is, do enough people want change?
Nik - KOTM
2015-07-13 14:18:39
All mis-laid boxes can be reported to letterboxing-update@googlegroups.com
Some quite good thoughts there, but this meant to be a debate, with the idea of generating a few fresh ideas which maybe ignored or even taken up... who knows?
whoisthechallenger
2015-07-14 10:57:41
Lets reinstate and protect the original 100 letterboxes - the first ones ever sited. Crow Tor, Fox Tor, Taw Marsh, Watern Tor et al. The fact that Cranmere Pool, Ducks Pool, and - to a lesser extent - Belstone Tor remain such iconic hotspots for the hobby justify the restoration of their pioneering companions.
Damn it - put them in ammo cans too!
Nik - KOTM
2015-07-15 07:30:38
Interesting idea...
Sowerby Streaker
2015-07-15 09:29:38
Wish there was a 'like' button here. Really like WITC idea of going back to ammo cans : :lol: The LBT wouldn't be able to carry many of those off, but then again he/she would just steal the stamp. Many years ago in the 80's there was actually a boxer who stole just the stamps and even had his own stamp made that said 'Stamp Stealer was here again'. Had it twice in my books where the stamp was taken.
Nik - KOTM
2015-07-18 14:26:41
I would love to see the return of the ammo can, but they are a valuable commodity these days and the military don't let them disappear so easily these days
Box Hunter
2015-07-19 20:19:00
Interesting question. What is wrong with letterboxing now? Does it sort out these problems by returning to its roots (as suggested by WITC) or by moving into the digital age (as suggested by Dartymoor)? Or a combination of the two?
Since I live a long way from the moor, live a very busy life and only get down a couple of times a year, convenience is important. I would love to have a reliable digital version of the catalogue. I have Colin Masters' programme, but with the end to the digital updates from Mike Halliday, I have to manually enter the new clues from the updates, and delete those which have been removed. And I have to do the same with the WOM clues I'm sent (not very many, as I'm not in the inner circle). This is a bind, takes time which I can ill-afford, and the data will be losing accuracy with user error on my part. Going online, using existing software from somewhere (geocaching?) looks like a sensible way to go. I don't think we need to worry too much about hackers; limiting access to those who pay a subscription should be enough to ward off all but the most determined, who would then still have to go out and find the boxes. The Club sells the catalogue to all-comers with no questions asked, after all. How about using this site as a portal to the online catalogue?
I have been looking back through my stamp collection, including to when I started boxing in the early 1990s. Though the quality of the stamps was variable, from crudely carved erasers to beautiful handcuts, shop-bought, off the shelf stamps were few and far between. A much higher proportion of boxes were directly linked to Dartmoor, and often to specific locations on Dartmoor. That connection to the place is something which I think should be more rigorously enforced. And density was lower; I was happy if I made it into double figures in a day. Can we encourage fewer, higher quality boxes, or does the pursuit of numbers now dominate for most people?
I can't pretend to speak for those who run the 100 Club, but I've no doubt that they are as keen as anyone to see Dartmoor Letterboxing thrive. One of the joys of letterboxing is that it has always been run on an entirely voluntary basis by a small group of people who are known to most of the participants. But some of them are sadly no longer with us, or no longer able to spend time or energy on the Club. The number of new people who have come through is limited. Do they have the technical know-how or time to make changes? Is there anyone else out there with the right skills willing to step up and put in the time and effort? Financial resources will also be a major issue. So far as I can see the Club has virtually no assets, covering its costs - but no more - through catalogue and update sales.
Why not go national? Yes, we're talking about Dartmoor letterboxing, but there are hundreds of boxes spread around the country, from Bodmin to the New Forest, the Lake District and Scotland, which draw their inspiration from Dartmoor boxing. If you widen the appeal of an online offering, you bring in new members (with useful skills, and perhaps time to invest in keeping it going) and broaden away from the small cliques of long-established boxers who live around south Devon.
Nik - KOTM
2015-07-21 06:21:06
Going National isn't an idea I really thought about, and I like it. Before the credit crunch I used to travel down to the Moors frequently, which almost satisfied my desires, compared with todays unsatisfactory expense to get there, seems luxurious in comparison.
To go boxing in my local vicinity would be nice...
But, it wouldn't be Dartmoor Letterboxing
Sowerby Streaker
2015-07-21 08:33:03
This thread is about Letterboxing in the Uk. However down here its Dartmoor Letterboxing, and as the name suggests is about letterboxing on Dartmoor . Surely if the owners of boxes elsewhere other than Dartmoor want the clues to go national, why don't they get on and do it. They have no links to our Dartmoor letterboxing community, so aren't bound by the very few rules that we have. Our organisers do a grand job, unpaid, and give up countless hours of their time to organise the 2 Bi annual meets, get the catalogue sorted and printed and then other people give up their free time to type up and get monthly updates out. There doesn't seem to be a stampede of people coming forward to offer their services to set up a national www website and pay for it and then operate it. Websites don't come cheep and need daily updating and maintenance and if you are going to make it interactive its even more costly.
As the saying goes, if its not broke so don't mend it :cry:
Nik - KOTM
2015-07-25 23:11:40
I take it you are against any idea of trying to improve things?
This is only a place for a discussion that may or may not create some good ideas.
The idea I thought about having it based online would still be paid for to gain access, as with the updates.
Sowerby Streaker
2015-07-26 08:44:19
No, I'm not against trying to improve things Nik - just don't think putting clues on line is the answer. Don't jump to the conclusion that everyone has access to computers and the ability to wade their way through all that involves. Yes its easy for some to just click and download clues for a particular area, but we can do that already with the various programs that are available. Even those living ourside the area can get a letterboxing program for free thanks to Colin the Computer Guy.
Isn't the idea of letterboxing to get people out on the moors to look for them. The main problem, as I see it, is once again the LBT. This has put people off putting out boxes in the first place. Especially those that hand carve their boxes. The DNP are to blame for closing the ring road off, thus cutting the middle of the moors off to many of the older generation who for years have kept letterboxing alive.
You only have to read threads on the FB page from new boxers with young children to realise they want boxes easily found and close enough to the road for little ones to walk to. There aren't any these days because they get stolen.
Once we can address the LBT or LBT's Letterboxing can move forward again.
Just my opinion.
Gemma
2015-07-27 18:23:29
Isn't the idea of letterboxing to get people out on the moors to look for them. The main problem, as I see it, is once again the LBT. This has put people off putting out boxes in the first place. Especially those that hand carve their boxes. The DNP are to blame for closing the ring road off, thus cutting the middle of the moors off to many of the older generation who for years have kept letterboxing alive.
You only have to read threads on the FB page from new boxers with young children to realise they want boxes easily found and close enough to the road for little ones to walk to. There aren't any these days because they get stolen.
Once we can address the LBT or LBT's Letterboxing can move forward again.
Just my opinion.
"Like" :D :D :D
Nik - KOTM
2015-08-07 18:45:00
As I said... it is a discussion and therefore hypothetical
bog_baby
2015-09-05 18:38:40
I disagree with giving limited codes, that will not encourage more people (which I'm assuming is the point) it might make it more 'interesting' for the experts but no family is going to spend their time looking under every rock for two hours with little or no success more than once or twice - been there done that. I don't think this makes it more like geocaching though it just makes it more accessible, on the other hand however I wouldn't like it to go national as then it would seem like it was trying to compete with geocaching.
I also think there is too much obsession with the LBT and the fact there is so much fear seems to suggest he is thriving despite things being off line so perhaps being on line would see little difference (or maybe he's some old miserable codger who wouldn't even venture on line anyway, that is if he even exists per se). I also agree that WOM boxes are cliquey and elitest, of course they can do their own thing if they please but that side of things is unlikely to encourage newbies. I disagree though that it should be all free, I would say perhaps that people should be able to log on and access the site for free for a week to try it and then there should be a membership fee.
I certainly agree that the original one hundred letterboxes should be protected and honoured - I'm disappointed that doesn't happen already. I think it would also be really nice to have some fixed box walks for famillies where the stamps are chained in the boxes and the directions are clear and fairly easy to follow with plenty of clues for the kids to solve, as I'm assuming most of the original 100 are pretty inaccessible and there is only so much 'searching' a 7 year old is going to be prepared to do xxx