Turned to the dark side......got me thinking.....

General letterboxing discussion.

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Tamerton Chocolates
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Post by Tamerton Chocolates »

Nik - KOTM wrote:OK - lets finally hit this one on the head. Letterboxes are privately owned, they are sited out on the moor with "permission" from DNPA there are restrictions that govern the siting of boxes, which don't seem to apply to some geocaching boxes, but these rules are all known to the letterboxer, but not necessarily to the geocacher.
The placing guidelines for letterboxes are actually far less "restricted" then those for geocaches. Until recently the DNPA allowed geocaches to be placed using the letterboxing code of conduct that they have on their website. They have recently amended this and geocaches now need specific permission from the landowner (f.i. the National Trust) if they are place within an SSSI (which covers a large part of the moor). And of course they have to meet groundspeak's general placing guidelines as well.

I presume the amendment comes from the fact that it is quite easy to force geocaches to adhere to certain rules wheras letterboxes are in essence just boxes hidden by individuals over which the NP has no control (other then a little self regulation amongst letterboxers)

As for your last statement - I am pretty sure that the most cache owners on Dartmoor are just as aware of the rules as letterbox owners.
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Post by Nik - KOTM »

Most yes - all no... and the same can be said for some peeps siting boxes
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Post by Dartymoor »

Nik - not that I think this would necessarily be a good thing, but I'm not sure agreement from every box owner would be needed. It is not a huge leap to assume that those who submit their details to the *publically available* book want their boxes published and spread. Putting online is just another form and could be seen as natural progression by some.

However.

Who owns the copyright of the text? Sylvia Moore for compiling the book, or the individual ownes for writing the clues? (I do admit I haven't checked the small print to see as am currently confined to bed!) Without that holder's agreement the text cannot be copied or republished.
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Post by Gemma »

Dartymoor wrote:Nik - not that I think this would necessarily be a good thing, but I'm not sure agreement from every box owner would be needed. It is not a huge leap to assume that those who submit their details to the *publically available* book want their boxes published and spread. Putting online is just another form and could be seen as natural progression by some.

However.

Who owns the copyright of the text? Sylvia Moore for compiling the book, or the individual ownes for writing the clues? (I do admit I haven't checked the small print to see as am currently confined to bed!) Without that holder's agreement the text cannot be copied or republished.
Agreement not needed nor is it possible to Manage. Even if it was possible to get an agreement how would it me policed.

As for copyright, I suggest the copyright is with the "clue writer" BUT that said once it goes into the Clue Book it is in the public domain & there by is the problem!! NO WAY could that be managed.

I don't subscribe that the way is ahead it to put the clues online. Hobby has been around a very long time & is still very popular.
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Post by bigdave »

it seems to me that the only thing to be gained by an internet database would be the ease of updating missing boxes for all other purposes the method currently in use seems to work quite well

i wonder if it may be possible for a list of the box numbers to be posted without their clues at the top of the missing boxes section in such a way that you could log in and tag it was missing then when others are in the area they could verify it

im shure if it is possible it would be quite easy to go through your book and highlight the missing boxes
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Post by Nik - KOTM »

Somewhere I do have a list of boxes from 1 - 30000 it might be higher I can't remember
But an online database without clues would be good
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Post by Sowerby Streaker »

Might be worth having a thread on here like that then. Just the box number and name of box. Then people can post whether they are missing or not.
Even easier, just pay 40p for the monthly update from Malcolm. He updates the boxes on there. I know its a year between catalogues now, but with that small expense, I keep up to date with all the boxes - missing, unmaintained etc.
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Post by Tamerton Chocolates »

There could quite easily be an online catalog with clues and instead of buying a printed one, letterboxers could purchase (and renew) a login for a year (just to pay for the upkeep of the site - perhaps people could be vetted before obtaining a login)

It would save whoever keeps the catalog up-to-date nowadays a lot of time and letterboxers could easily give feedback for boxes, print clues etc. To the LBT it would be just as easy/difficult to obtain clues as it is now - but by moving part of the hobby into the 21st century perhaps it would attract some fresh blood.

The site could also be used to distribute WOM clues where only certain logins have access to them (determined by the owner of the box).

edit: And you could extend this idea no end. There could be a page where non-members can report boxes, you could allow charity walks to be sold directly through the online catalog (exposing them to a lot more potential buyers then having them only at the meet) .. etc

But as Gemma mentioned before - the hobby has been around for a while and I don't think the few dozen oldschool letterboxers that currently keep it going are likely to change their ways.
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Post by bigdave »

i think as an addition to the current way letterboxing is run with the cluebook being easily obtainable by all that if you where able to update your book and mark off missing boxes easily that it would stop newcomers to letterboxing getting annoyed at missing boxes and trying anther hobby instead.

once set up it would make the job for the people who put their time into making the cluebook easier and give letterboxers new and old a better idea of whats missing.

as some people have mentioned there are letterbox/geocache hybrid boxes popping up anyway anybody wanting to do that allready has the hobby started off for them and all they have to do is set their new or existing box up on a geocacheing site and add the clues to that site.

or as has allready been mentioned there is nothing stopping people from putting out boxes and posting their clues on this site maybe a new section could be added for this purpose. as a new boxer i may use it when i get around to putting some out but i think people who have been doing it a long time who have lost lots allready would be a lot more wary of it.
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Post by Nik - KOTM »

OK before this gets completely out of control I think I had better pour some oil on these waters.
An interesting debate it has been, but this forum has no sway over the 100 club committee, it is a forum for letterboxers to compare notes yarns or dits.
Personally I would welcome an online version of the clue book, and an online database with images of all the 100 club stamps that have ever appeared on the moor which have been deleted.
It would certainly make my pile of unknown stamps smaller.
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Post by Sowerby Streaker »

As Sylvia Moors owns the copyright to the clue boox along with the box owners, this is never going to happen unless she and the others give their permission. Who is going to go throught the catalogue and contact all the owners of each box for their permission. If the catalogue goes on line without those permissions, then someone better have a big bank balance to defend the court case.

The 100 club runs very well as it is, is hugely recognised even in the US. Only last year Roger and Steph took around a group from the US who were celebrating some anniversary and in doing so, they commented how well the 100club was run.

Like you Nik, think this thread is in danger of getting out of control.
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Post by Colin »

Personally I like it just the way it is, I can see the plus sides of an online Database but at the same time I think letterboxing for me would lose its charm as I would suspect it would end up as more geocaching than letterboxing.

Putting my "IT" hat on for a second I reckon it would be quite a big job to create a good online letterboxing database website with all the functionally people would expect. It would take a serious amount of development time to do, so unless people with the relevant skills offered their time for free there would be a big bill for development which of course would then have to be passed onto the subscribers.

As Maureen has pointed out you would then probably still need to get the permission of the box owners to publish them online. Which I suspect a lot of people would not give so in the end you will end up with a database with fewer clues in than the current Cat and a lot more WOM boxes.

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